Andrew Napolitano 

Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for judging freedom. Today is Wednesday, November 29 2023. Our good friend Professor Jeffrey Sachs joins us today. Professor Sachs thanks very much. We know your time is precious, and it's very much appreciated.

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

Great to be with you.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

I want to talk to you mainly about Israel and Hamas and the IDF and the truce there and the likely events to follow it. But before we do, before we get there, what is your understanding of the current military situation in Ukraine? Of the last, we discussed this, there was public feuding between President Solinsky and general as illusionary the borders had been closed so that people submit to the draft couldn't leave, the government is contemplating a draft of 70, age 17 to age 7070 of both genders. And elections in 2024 have been canceled. I mean, none of this looks very good. But what's your understanding of the military situation between Russia and Ukraine as we speak,

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

Ukraine has lost this war. And it's a tragedy because after losing this war, in effect, every day that goes on is a loss of hundreds or sometimes more than 1000 Ukrainians each day, two deaths and two grievious of wounds on the battlefield. So it's a terrible what's happening, the reason for this purported mass mobilization, which they're so far not able to carry out because no one's coming forward. The morale is, at bottom is that the losses that Ukraine has incurred are in the hundreds of 1000s. There are a range of estimates. Of course, nobody knows, maybe even the most insiders don't really know the exact count. But hundreds of 1000s of Ukrainians have been killed. And hundreds of 1000s of Ukrainians have been badly wounded. And some estimates, say it's 500,000 killed plus wounded, others put it at a million or more little but it's a huge number. Ukraine has run through, in fact, several full armies, what equipment was sent, has basically been lost, and the much hyped and vontade counter offensive that started in June, failed. Ukraine took essentially no territory, all of the big claims that it would make its way to the Sea of Azov that would cut Crimea from the mainland of Russia. We're not even close calls, there was nothing of the sort happening. And now the initiative is in Russia's favor all along the extensive front line from here, sown region, all the way up to the north. And so this is a dire situation. That's why the leaders are feuding. That's why clearly in the US and in Europe, there is great consternation Biden would love nothing more than for all of this to go away so we can have a reelection campaign. This is a debacle for his administration. We had a really terrible shocking report by the lead Ukrainian negotiator with Russia back in March and April 2022. David R. Kamiah. Who heads Solinsky sees party in the Ukrainian parliament, saying clearly something I knew that we've discussed and I knew it from the inside but we hear it now. From Ukraine's lead negotiator, there was a peace agreement on the table that was stopped by the United States and the UK, because they wanted the Ukrainians to fight on.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

This is the this is the peace agreement that Boris Johnson himself flew to keep in order to interfere with.

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

That is correct. There is a general principle in the world that anyone that listens to Boris Johnson doesn't have their head on straight. Principle, honest to God, that's a general principle, because that guy really is one of the most irresponsible people to have his moment of political power that that we've had in a long time. But he actually went to Kyiv. In early April, no doubt carrying the message of the United States also told them no, you don't sign that we don't have your back on that. We do not accept neutrality Fight on, of course, we have our senators who have even written things that are so gross and detestable. Like Blumenthal, like Mitt Romney, who said Fight on, this is great value for us money, we're not losing any dead. And we're showing China how strong we are, you know, you cannot make this stuff up. These are supposed to be grownups and the liberators. And so the basic point is, Ukraine is in a terrible situation. We put them there, let's be frank, because they could have had neutrality and they could have had peace, by the way, they could have avoided the war altogether, right? If

 

Andrew Napolitano 

they've pushed this, they've lost a generation of young men.

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

By the way, in addition to the terrible, shocking levels of deaths and wounded, they've lost millions and millions of people, some who have gone to Russia, some who have gone to Western Europe, some who are living in what is now a territory, governed by Russia, Ukraine itself, we don't even know the population. But the estimates are that between 10 and 20 million people are not there because of migration and and the war itself. So it's a terrible situation. They are led by ideologues who outlawed negotiation after coming close to signing it. Right now we've heard the truth. You know, it's so rare to hear the truth that it just kind of gets blurted out, it's obvious if you're on the inside of these things, but when you try to say it, on the outside, that the official narratives dominate, but we've heard the truth, this is a war over NATO enlargement, that means a war that never should have taken place. The Secretary General of NATO blurted out the truth when he spoke to the European Union parliament. Now the chief negotiator blurted out the truth. A few months ago, the former Prime Minister of Israel blurted out the truth and he had to cover his tracks because someone told him Oh, you shouldn't have said that. Right. But the truth is, this war never should have happened. The United States pushed Ukraine into this, it could have stopped right away. And now it's a complete disaster. And to this day, the United States leadership can't get it in their heads to call Putin and say, you know, that NATO enlargement thing that was really a dumb idea, can we find a way out of this mess, and that's the call that should happen. Any moment, on a daily basis. I'll do it again. If President Biden needs my Zoom account, I can give him a Zoom account. So he can make this call, but he has not picked up the phone or dial the zoom so that he can talk to his counterpart and get this disaster ended. Switching

 

Andrew Napolitano 

to Israel and Gaza, from your experience with and your observation, observations of ceasefires, truces, whatever you want to call them? Do they have a way of spreading because of the era of good feeling that happens during them? Or do the combatants typically regroup, regroup become more lethal and salivate until they can start killing again?

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

It is clear that basically the vast majority of the world community that means the nations of the United Nations, the member states, the nations that are in the 15 member un UN Security Council want this ceasefire to turn into peace. And I spoke in the UN Security Council last week. And the desire for this war to end is everywhere. Except I would say, inside the Israeli cabinet. The Israeli cabinet is now a mix of a few normal politicians. Netanyahu who is God awful, and some absolute right wing extremists, like the finance minister Bezaleel smoke rich and the Security National Security Minister, Ben kavir, who are telling Netanyahu today and it's reported in the press again, no more hostage exchange's, no more ceasefires. We gotta get in and kill Hamas. And what that means we know, because it's not a secret. It's a tragedy witnessed every day. That means killing 10s of 1000s of innocent civilians, they don't care. They don't care. If these are work, these are war crimes. The so how this comes down is what is the United States going to do? Where is the US leadership? Because Israel can't do this without the United States? Does the President have what a president supposed to have? And that's the ability to decide something in the world's interest, and especially in the American interest, the American interest is for this mass killing and war crimes in Gaza to stop.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

Does Joe Biden is he getting cold feet over his whetted at the hip to anything the Israeli cabinet wants to do? Is he beginning to understand what you just described as a world consensus. And even as a consensus in the United States?

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

Our politicians and Joe Biden is nothing if not a politician had been trained for generations. Show no space with Israel. That's American politics. That's their training. That's their instinct. That's what they reach for. So when Biden basically said at the beginning, we have your back. He was just going with the handbook, one on one of us, politics and Israel. Now, they're shocked. They're shocked because America is not what they thought. American public opinion is not support Israel, on all things Americans are watching what's happening. They are brokenhearted. By the 1000s and 1000s of deaths of children under the rubble. They're shocked by the gross SNESs of these politicians in Israel smoke rich and Ben Revere and notice been

 

Andrew Napolitano 

given have such power. I mean, he told the IDF not even to permit the Palestinian people to celebrate and to manifest joy. When their prisoners have been returned. He must be truly a monster if he thinks he can outlawed joy at normal human happiness.

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

Look, this cabinet of Netanyahu. Before it was expanded a little bit as a so called Unity cabinet was the most right wing cabinet in Israel's history. Israel was already coming apart at the seems with hundreds of 1000s of people demonstrating against this government, Netanyahu is is a scourge for Israel, he's pulling the country apart, was doing so before October 7, and is doing so now. And his government included these extreme, rightists who are so vulgar that what they're saying is being taken down by the lawyers as evidence of genocidal intent matters. That's how extreme the rhetoric is. We have legal institutions in the United States, the Center for Constitutional Rights among them, which are collecting just the verbatim statements of these members of the Netanyahu cabinet as evidence of genocidal intent. That means, boy, you're you're not watching your mouth. You're doing things that are so outrageous, so vulgar, that the whole world is shocked. As reality right now

 

Andrew Napolitano 

to two sets of numbers for you, Professor sacks over the weekend, the New York Times reported that more women and children have been killed in eight weeks in Gaza than had been killed in 18 months in Ukraine. second set of figures, the Israelis have released about 35 to 40 Palestinian prisoners. They have arrested, according to Al Jazeera this morning, 133 Palestinians while walking on the streets of the West Bank, three times the number they have released

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

the war in Ukraine, which is a tragedy, which could end today, if Biden would recognize his blunders. I stopped the NATO enlargement has by and large been a war of armies attacking armies, or of missiles against industrial infrastructure. And, of course, 1000s of people have been killed, but they have not been targeted. And this observation that has been made in recent days, that the killings in of civilians in Gaza exceed the civilian deaths, as best as we know, in all of the Ukraine war, is because Israel, new Gaza is a tightly packed place of people living in in crowded areas, and they bomb the hell out of them. And they bombed the schools and they bombed the clinics, and they bombed the hospitals. They knew. Now they say it's to fight Hamas. But they also whether that is what they're doing, or what they're thinking or not thinking. They also said that their goal was to make Gaza uninhabitable. And they're doing that northern Gaza has basically been half or more destroyed. People can't go back. Homes are in rubble, right now. And now they're talking, at least is smoke rich. And Ben Revere, and I'm sure it's not Yahoo's instinct, also. And they're, you know, elbow net now looks to the United States, which could stop this, but they're talking about going into southern Gaza, where the people have fled, and doing the same thing killing them there. Right. So this is this is what what we're facing right now.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

has, has the Israeli government lost? Or is it on the verge of losing the PR war in the West? And if they lose the PR war in the US? How critical is that to them?

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

Well, first of all, Israel cannot carry this war one day without the United States. And that is really the responsibility of the United States. We've been through this many times, by the way, you know, in 1973, in the so called Yom Kippur war, after Egypt made the initial surprise breakthrough. Israel, responded, retaliated, crossing the Suez Canal could have made its way on to Cairo, Henry Kissinger stopped it, saying don't do that make peace. And Kissinger played an extremely constructive role, then, but what it illustrates is, the United States can stop this. That is what a president is hired to do, actually, that's in America security interest, actually, in Israel security interest as well. So that's what a president is supposed to do. And, and could it could be done? What is Israel doing? These extremists think, for whatever reason, and I can think of some of these reasons, none of them justified. They think we don't have to listen to public opinion at all. Anyway, America will have our back anyway, we do what we want the world's always against us and so forth. The world's not always against Israel. That is so phony and so wrong. The world is against what Israel is doing right now. Not against Israel, here but this idea that we don't have to listen because they hate us anyway, which is phoney, just these people don't get out of I don't know, they don't understand the world. I see it every day because I'm all over the world. Right? Here's. Anyway, the point is, Israel is deeply endangering itself to save Israel, in my view what I called for last week in the UN Security Council, and I'm calling for it again. Today, the UN Security Council should recognize the state of Palestine as a UN member state, stop this 50 year plus drama, have the state of Palestine recognized as has been part of UN Security Council resolutions going back, actually to 1967 to just after the Six Day War, and then have the two sides lived side by side and have UN peacekeepers there to help make that possible.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

And, of course, you know, the United States will veto that and the Security Council, I want to play a clip for you. This is from 2006. You have seen this before, I know. You'll recognize the person immediately. And you'll agree with what he has to say cut number three, Chris.

 

 

His new book is called Palestine peace, not apartheid. And President Carter Why did you worse the use the word apartheid in the book's title?

 

 

Well, let's look at the entire title. If you don't mind. The first part is Palestine, which involves the land that belongs to the Palestinians, not the Israelis. I didn't refer to Israel, because there's no semblance of anything relating to apartheid within the nation of Israel, and also emphasize the word not that is peace and not apartheid. That's what I hope to accomplish with this book is so move toward that goal. But there's no doubt that within the occupied territories Palestinian land, there is a horrendous example of apartheid, the occupation of Palestinian land, the confiscation of that land that doesn't belong to Israel, the building of settlements on it, the colonization of that land, and then the connection of those isolated but multiple settlements more than 200, often with each other by highways on which Palestinians can't travel, and quite often where Palestinians cannot even cross. So the persecution of the Palestinians now under the occupied territories, in the occupation forces is one of the worst examples of human rights, deep privation, that I know,

 

Andrew Napolitano 

Jeff, that was 17 years ago. And every word of it is relevant today, is it not? Or it was relevant on October 6, when God said existed? It

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

all it also brings tears to my eyes to tell you the truth, because what a wonderful human being Jimmy Carter is and what a remarkable Peacemaker. He was at Camp David, when he brought Menachem Bagan and Anwar Sadat together and they made peace between Egypt and Israel, and showed how it could be done. And I happened to be in Egypt the following summer and everywhere I went and no with the the peasant farmers, Jamie kinda Anwar Sadat, they just loved him. For for this peacemaking, so he speaks the truth, and he spoke the truth, then. This is an apartheid system, of course, it's an apartheid system. It's Israel ruling over occupied territories, and by design, settling hundreds of 1000s of Israelis in the occupied territories, something that the UN Security Council repeatedly called Israel to stop, and Israel ignored all of those appeals and the United States basically, backed Israel explicitly or implicitly, in all of these recent years. And again, we need a president of the United States who does the job.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

Where do you see this going? I mean, the the the truce or a ceasefire, a ceasefire has legal implications. The truce will soon be over the keep extending it. the Qataris are doing the best to make this permanent. Netanyahu was under tremendous pressure from the right wing and his politics in his cabinet have been Kabir even threatened to wreck the government by leaving the cabinet leaving the government at some riping Netanyahu have a majority. Bless

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

him. That would be the greatest contribution to Israel possible let this government fall. This is a miserable government. Israel needs a government that represents its real interests, not this miserable right wing government. So let him leave. Of course, it's obvious Netanyahu should have stepped down the first day after that terrible Hamas terrorist attack on October 7, because that was a failure of security. And Netanyahu should have taken responsibility. Of course, he shouldn't have been there for months before that, because he was wrecking the society and dividing Israel deeply. And that's one of the reasons why its guard was down on October 7, was all of the divisions within the country. So it been good. Vir says, I threatened to leave, bless him, leave, break the government let a government come in that represents Israel's real interest. That would be democracy at work.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

And if but if he stays, and if at the end of the truce for the purpose of exchanging hostages prisoners, why is why are the Palestinians in Israeli jails called prisoners? They haven't had any due process. And the kidnapped Israelis called hostages. They're both hostages. But but whatever. It's it's Orwellian the use of words. But once the battle resumes, what's going to happen our regional players going to get involved is President Erdogan of Turkey, got to sit back and let the Palestinian people be eradicated?

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

I believe that the overwhelming world opinion, will and the US public opinion will force the US to realize that it can no longer protect such war crimes and this kind of behavior for Israel's own good, let me emphasize. So I think that the US will change. When I was in the Security Council last week, it's obvious that basically, there's 14 to one the US is backstopping Israel, but, but understanding more and more, it's an untenable situation. Of course, the UK will do whatever the US wants. That's also another rule of politics. That doesn't quite make sense. But I think the US will change and we will see peace be put into reality, actually, because not only does world opinion want that, but all of Israel's neighbors want it. Also, it's not as if the Arab countries are rejectionist. The Arab and Islamic leaders said in Riyadh, when we talked about it, that a two state solution also means security for both Israel and Palestine. And it means a normalization of relations between the Arab States and Israel. So we're not far from peace. But that will not happen with the likes of smoky ridge and Ben Revere, or Netanyahu leading the show. They want something else. But that's not what the Israeli people want or need. And it's certainly not what the Arab neighbors will accept. And it's not what the United States should ever accept. Professor

 

Andrew Napolitano 

Jeffrey Sachs from the other side of the world, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for your time. Thanks for your analysis. Thanks for your passion.

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

Great to be with you.

 

Andrew Napolitano 

All the best. We'll see you next week.

 

Jeffrey Sachs 

Thank you. Thanks. Bye bye.