Prof. Jeffrey Sachs: How Israel is harming itself.
Andrew Napolitano
Hi, everyone. Today is Wednesday, November 1 2023. Our good friend Professor Jeffrey Sachs joins us today from Rome. Professor Sachs. Welcome back to the show. Thank you. Great. Thanks for taking the time to do this on your hectic travel schedule. You recently wrote Professor Sachs, that Israel is running out of time to save itself. What did you mean by that?
Jeffrey Sachs
Every day that we see this bloodshed, this carnage in Gaza, and we have new new cases of mass destruction just now and being played on video all over the world. Israel is isolating itself from the global conscience from the world community from normal politics. And I would say from basic ethics, yes, Israel needs security. But it is not going to find security by killing 1000s or 10s of 1000s of innocents. Especially its children and women who are dying right now. And Israel is not thinking, or they are thinking I should say, but they're thinking in a way, which is only about power and force and not about peaceful solutions that would bolster their security, that would strengthen their place in the world. That would enable a real peace to take hold, they're only thinking of the fist coming down and it won't work, they're going to lose not only a lot of young Israelis who will die in Gaza, and we have the numbers starting and 1000s or 10s, of 1000s of innocent deaths of civilians, but they're going to find the whole world united against Israel, and that fundamentally, will undermine their security. They don't get it. They're not listening. Of course, they are led by the most divisive political figure that Israel has ever had, who was already bringing hundreds of 1000s of people out on the streets in protest against his government before any of this October and November events even started, and who let the guard down. I made Israel left Israel, I should say vulnerable to this horrific terrorist attack, and now probably in the quest to somehow save his political life, which is over, actually, unquestionably over but to somehow save his political life. Netanyahu is undertaking this massively wrongly conceived and disastrous response, does he
Andrew Napolitano
embrace the view perhaps internally, within himself, that he only stays as prime minister for as long as the war rages? That the Israelis will not change governments in the middle of a war, a serious war, and that therefore, he has a vested personal interest in the war going on and on and on, so he stays in power? Am I wrong to even suggest such an ignoble motivation on his part?
Jeffrey Sachs
Well, I think his motivation in some sense is to be the still the savior of Israel. In its security, that's been the guys that he has always played for himself. important word is guys. Yes, because, look, he divided the country so much he actually left Israel so vulnerable that an attack that actually should never have been permitted by normal security and intelligence operations occurred. It wasn't just to Hamas is deviousness, it was Israel completely letting its guard down. But that was after months of internal civil unrest stoked by the most divisive government that Israel has ever had in its existence. So I don't know whether he wants perpetual war, or he wants to crush Hamas and show that therefore he has saved Israel, whether it's perpetual war or a decisive victory, I don't know. But it is his self delusional idea that he remains Israel's indispensable leader, and he's going to prove it. But what he's doing is creating an absolute disaster for Israel that could prove devastating in many, many ways. Absolutely, in many ways, but one of the ways that it will be devastating in days is that the world is aghast at what Israel is doing. Israel essentially, has one backer, but not even necessarily for long, and that is the United States. Because Israel knows that it's acting, and can act only with the US at its back. But even in the United States, to count on this absolutely unconditional public support or to follow our government in saying explicitly, not implicitly, not implied not whispered, but explicitly, there are no red lines on Israel. No matter how many civilian deaths, no much, no matter how much disaster that was actually the explicit statement by our government, that there are no red lines, well, the rest of the world doesn't by it, and not just the Muslim world, which is huge and important, and significant part of the world population. But the rest of the world to nobody supports this kind of carnage of a civilian population is this way.
Andrew Napolitano
Is this carnage of a civilian population? Likely to invite a military response from other parts of the world?
Jeffrey Sachs
I think so. Because there are so many armed paramilitaries, there are so many roving jihadist forces in the region. There are so many Muslim governments around that, because of their own public pressures can't simply sit back and have the unfold what is now unfolding. I, even I, leaders, like Prime Minister Erdogan of Turkey, who is a very important and significant figure in the world, a member of NATO with a vast army has been speaking Absolutely, bluntly, forcefully. And I think, understandably, from his political and moral and, and religious point of view, that what is happening is completely unacceptable. And when you will have someone like Erawan, who is again, part of NATO, taking such a strong position, of course, this is not to mention Iran. This is not to mention jihadist all over Syria, over in Yemen, in other neighborhoods in Lebanon, of course, the chance for sparks to set a mass wildfire. And then with the American troops, no doubt are American targets going to be hit and then we're going to hear in the US have voices. We've already had them with Lindsey Graham and other hotheads who always want more war in the US Congress say, well, now we have to go bomb Iran and who knows where this leads, but it's not good. Can
Andrew Napolitano
the United can the United States either. Get Prime Minister Netanyahu to dial it back? Call a ceasefire. or change the hostages for the Palestinian prisoners that they have and work something out or can the United States by other means save Israel from itself.
Jeffrey Sachs
The United States can do it, but not by itself. The United States can do it in conjunction with actually the Arab League with the Arab Diwan, and Turkey. With a broader world community, the United States is essentially almost isolated in the world, as we can see, watching day by day in the United Nations deliberations. So in the United Nations Security Council, there have been several resolutions now. And the United States is essentially the lone voice against even a humanitarian ceasefire, much less a more general ceasefire, a humanitarian ceasefire means stopping the fighting to allow for humanitarian relief. There are calls, of course, for a general ceasefire, but even for a humanitarian ceasefire, the United States has stood essentially, alone, there was what
Andrew Napolitano
conceivable argument could the Biden administration make for opposing a humanitarian ceasefire, when at the same time he's calling for humanitarian aid?
Jeffrey Sachs
The basic point that is hammered into every politicians head in Washington for decades is never show any space between the United States and Israel. And every politician is on a rope pattern to believe that, and every political advisor emphasizes don't ever raise a question mark, don't ever raise a moment of hesitation, you will be attacked, you will be attacked by large Jewish donors, you will be attacked by Christian fundamentalist donors, you will be attacked by interest groups, you will be attacked by the Israeli government. It's a basic standard of American mainstream political life, not to show any space between the United States and any Israeli government. So it's not that they love what's going on. It's that the politicians are trained, absolutely. trained by habit, trained by circumstance, trained by experience, trained by their advisors. Don't question anything that Israel is doing. Of course, it's terrible for the United States. Absolutely terrible. You have to think in this world. You can't just be on rote, and expect that things can work out, especially when you're in a deep crisis. That's that's actually, the main role of a president of the United States is to not have a slip into disasters. And right now, we don't have leadership. We have our spokesman doing the normal politics, which is Israel has no red lines. And it's led by Netanyahu. And when you tell Netanyahu no red lines, oh, my God, because even if you told him red lines, it might not matter the first 10 times he hears
Andrew Napolitano
it. I have a friend and colleague, who's a libertarian, like I am Tom Woods, who has a funny one liner, no matter who you elect for President, you end up with John McCain. I mean, it's the same. It's the same attitude over and over again. With respect to Israel does, the Israeli government believes that all men are created equal.
Jeffrey Sachs
The Israeli government believes that it for any number of reasons which may vary among the government officials believe that Israel must control all of Israel and all of the Palestinian territories. For some people, this is a deeply religious view. Because if you read the book of Joshua, that is the fundamentalist interpretation that all of this land is intrinsically Jewish land given by God that is one motivating view for some people. Another motivating view is that Israel's security depends entirely on control. And so there can be no peaceful compromise. And that view also goes back many, many decades. And there There is yet a deeper another tradition, which is a very practical one that is a century old since the founding of the Jewish homeland after the Balfour Declaration, and that is, take what you can and don't give it back. And this has been a pragmatic approach. I remember also watching it personally and visiting Israel already 50 years ago, this year, after the Six Day War in 1967, the plan was start putting settlers in and the phrase repeated 1000s of times was put facts on the ground, make it so that the land can never go back? Well, as you know, very well, there are now more than 400,000 Israeli settlers in occupied territories and 200,000 more in East Jerusalem. So more than 600,000 Israelis living in what the United Nations says is occupied territory. So there are many motivations. But the Israeli political system, but especially this, Netanyahu would government and Netanyahu whose governments over time, have the view, no matter what the UN says no matter what the world says no matter what our ground realities tell us we will control everything and de facto what that means is an apartheid state. All right, so yes, so
Andrew Napolitano
they don't believe that all men are created equal. They don't believe that, that it that the Arabs have the same natural human rights as the Jewish people.
Jeffrey Sachs
Well, they don't put any sense of equality into operation. Let's put it that way. I don't know what they believe about that in religious or philosophical terms. But what they believe in operational political terms is that Israel rules and the others essentially don't have political rights. Can
Andrew Napolitano
Israel defeat Hamas?
Jeffrey Sachs
Israel, cannot defeat Hamas, other than through massive war crimes and the destruction of a civilian population. Can Israel defeat Hamas? We should ask, of course, Colonel McGregor, who knows much more about the military than I do?
Andrew Napolitano
Well, my military. My military guys tell me they ask you, my military guys are saying Israel cannot defeat Hamas, because it is an idea.
Jeffrey Sachs
I guess what I would say is the following Israel, could could flatten Gaza, and kill 10s of 1000s, or hundreds of 1000s, who could displace essentially more than 2 million people, it probably could do that. It would do that, in the face of worldwide horror and provocation, and a wider war would ensue. And even if somehow, Israel were to defeat Hamas, I think it's pretty clear a few points, one, even the direct military costs would be phenomenally large. A second major point is that it would come only in the context of massive war crimes by Israel. Third, it would come only in the context of massive and absolutely critical geopolitical isolation of Israel, because this would be a horrific set of events all watched and documented meticulously hour by hour, and day to day. And it would come with a very high possibility of a regional war. That would be extraordinarily dangerous for everybody. So if you asked me, could it be done? Probably Technically, yes. But at costs that are so high and so dangerous, it's absolutely mind boggling to think in those terms, especially since there isn't a scintilla of evidence that Israel has thought at all about this other than in these terms. They have one gear, and that is the war gear. They don't have any diplomacy. They're obnoxious in their diplomacy. Let me say when they call on the Secretary General of the United Nations to resign after making a very balanced, judicious, wise, humanitarian. So this is the point they're not thinking and they think that they will be able to do something that they absolutely cannot do, which is to make more security for themselves this way. Recently,
Andrew Napolitano
the Secretary of State Tony Blinken made some rather off the wall. Comments In testimony before, I believe a Senate committee saying that fighting against Hamas are helping the Israelis to fight against Hamas and helping Ukrainians to fight against the Russians. It's tough for me to say this with a straight face somehow sends a message to China. And we're doing this to send a message to China, you have any idea what he's talking about?
Jeffrey Sachs
It's, it's so off the wall. But I understand what he's talking about. I understand that they're off the wall. They are so confused. They want to be tough to China. So being tough to China, apparently, it means killing people right and left or engaging in a losing war in Ukraine that is leaving hundreds of 1000s of Ukrainians dead. They're very confused people. They have a wrong idea of the world. They have an absolutely wrong idea of China. The Chinese cannot, cannot figure this out. By the way. The Chinese are very sophisticated. I was just in Beijing, I talk regularly with the Chinese foreign policy officials, they cannot figure out what what are they talking about, as
Andrew Napolitano
they have whom you speak as the Biden foreign policy establishment
Jeffrey Sachs
essentially, yes. I mean, it's the prevailing, but it's also the broader political class in Congress as well. So it probably extends beyond the White House. But they're absolutely dumbfounded by this. It's so lacking coherence, professionalism, ideas, concepts, reality. And it's sad to see Blinken talk like this, it's it's a nonsense, but I can only tell you judge, I hear it from others in Washington also. They're, they've completely lost the melody. They don't get it at all. And what's weird about this, by the way, is that at the same time, they're trying to improve it diplomacy with China, because they're trying to get ready for a Biden Xi summit around the APEC meetings at the end of November. And then Blinken comes out and says, yes, we need to this war against Gaza and the Ukraine war to show how tough we are to China. And that's really going to impress the Chinese. The Chinese are looking at this in amazement as the US basically goes over the edge in disasters, isolating itself from the rest of the world. I didn't get a chance to say in the Security Council. There were there was this humanitarian resolution and the United States was the sole veto. It was 12 votes in favor. The United States vetoing two abstentions, Russia and the UK. Russia vetoing because they wanted a full ceasefire, not just a humanitarian ceasefire, but the United States stands alone in saying not even the humanitarian ceasefire. And then the world's watching this and to think that China's quaking, it is you know, quaking in its boots because it's ridiculous, complete confusion is is is both a nonsense and so profoundly wrongheaded. But we do have other senators of Blumenthal of Connecticut, Mitt Romney said the same thing. You know, this is showing how tough we are to China. They were talking not about Israel, they were talking about the war in Ukraine. And maybe they don't get it. But the Ukrainians really are running out of people out of people, not just out of artillery out of people, because hundreds of 1000s have died. And maybe 100,000 Since June since this US pushed counter offensive for nothing. And that's that's showing how tough we are.
Andrew Napolitano
There's a piece in Time Magazine this week, you probably saw it. I don't know if time is a magazine anymore. If it's just online, saying that Zelinsky zone, people feel he's delusional.
Jeffrey Sachs
Yes, because basically, he bought in AI in March 2022. To the US delusion he put his Whole. Everything has country on the line, his personal conditions on the line for a US delusion. Because the fact is we've discussed is that in March 2022, the Ukrainians and Russians were close to an agreement based on Ukrainian neutrality. And the United States swooped in and said, Don't do that. We've got your back. That's when Biden said, for God's sake, this man cannot remain in power. Referring to Putin. And our Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin said Our purpose is to weaken Russia. And we put the Ukrainians on a path of self destruction.
Andrew Napolitano
Being a Prime Minister Netanyahu should take note, if he expects the United States to save Israel, because the United States claimed it was saving Ukraine. And we have facilitated and almost paid for its destruction.
Jeffrey Sachs
George, you know, one of Kissinger's most famous lines that to be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal. And what we're watching is, when the United States says we have your back, my God, you better be worried. Because this kind of approach of the US, especially in the last 30 years, the period when Biden referred to the indispensable nation, all this delusion. It's exactly this, that has led the United States to think we have our way on anything. And other countries that depend on the United States believe or have believed that this all powerful nation that has its way on everything will protect them. And what is happening in Ukraine. And what hap is happening in Israel is showing how profoundly profoundly dangerous it is not to have diplomacy not to engage in problem solving, but instead, to try to rely on force and to believe that the United States through force that can absolve a country of the responsibilities of decency and International Law and Diplomacy and cooperation. And they can't. There is no magic antigravity to avoid realities. And this is what Ukraine and Israel are going to find out the hard way. I'm very sorry to say, Professor
Andrew Napolitano
Sachs, thank you very much. Thanks for taking time out of your work in Europe to join us. Very enlightening, profound, we'll see you next week. Absolutely. Great to be with you. Safe travels my friend.